tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post7712959698648394506..comments2024-02-13T23:28:25.524+11:00Comments on Sarah Stewart: Would you donate your body for medical students to cut up?Sarah Stewarthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00480597227427423793noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-49739696810259617242010-01-13T06:00:56.343+11:002010-01-13T06:00:56.343+11:00Thank you very much for your comment EAMD - great ...Thank you very much for your comment EAMD - great to hear from a student's perspectiveSarah Stewarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00480597227427423793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-87729755456174387382010-01-13T03:22:34.956+11:002010-01-13T03:22:34.956+11:00I'm a first-year medical student who just star...I'm a first-year medical student who just started Gross Anatomy, so here are a couple extraordinarily biased thoughts from the field...<br /><br />1. I firmly believe dissection is a valuable part of the medical school experience. Bodies in books often look the same, both on the inside and on the outside. Bodies in books are neatly color-coded and diagrammed. It's vastly different to dig around for the internal thoracic artery, versus point to it on the page and say, "There it is. The blue one."<br /><br />2. In my opinion, "human" applies to our cadavers as an adjective, not a noun. The soul, the essence, the spirit, whatever you want to call it--it's gone. Those perturbed by the barbarity of dissection would do well to recall the history of modern medicine. Far more ghastly techniques--on humans-- have been used to teach physicians about anatomy and physiology. Read up on J. Marion Sims, the "father of modern gynecology", for more detail on this. <br /><br />3. In direct response to some of the commenters' concerns, it is my understanding that bodies for donation are donated after any desired funeral service is performed, i.e. the family has a funeral, THEN donates the body. Also, these particular bodies often have a variety of conditions--age being the most common one--which preclude organ donation. Finally, the eyes of our cadavers are already gone. They don't preserve well. :)<br /><br />4. Finally, I am keeping track of disrespectful jokes/comments I hear. So far, it hasn't been egregious. But I have heard my classmates say ridiculous things outside the anatomy lab, so I am not holding my breath for a totally reverent atmosphere inside the lab.<br /><br />Just some spectacularly biased thoughts from someone who is totally excited about gross anatomy. The great thing about body donation is that it's an opt-in procedure. I have friends who are all over donating their bodies to science. Other people, not so much. As excited as I am for this class, I think either choice is a valid one.EAMDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04402269928945703040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-19701620427555634332009-12-11T12:01:59.047+11:002009-12-11T12:01:59.047+11:00Hi Carol, great to hear from a younger person. As ...Hi Carol, great to hear from a younger person. As a matter of interest, what do you think you'll do as a job when you leave school? Will you do something in health like be a doctor or nurse?Sarah Stewarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00480597227427423793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-44864671687716491942009-12-11T08:38:20.095+11:002009-12-11T08:38:20.095+11:00I'm in grade 11 and I my biology class went to...I'm in grade 11 and I my biology class went to Queens university in Kingston ON and got the opportunity to the cadavers. I just wanted to say that I thought it was a very neat experience. We were allowed to touch the body and see how everything worked and how it was connected. Having a hands on experience really helped me understand the human anatomy better!<br />I will want my body donated to science if I die a natural death. I believe that once the person is dead the body is just a body and the person is not longer there. I think the bodies should be respected, and I think that used for science is a good cause after death. :)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04374473471032377915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-14504732810340244082009-11-22T18:41:19.373+11:002009-11-22T18:41:19.373+11:00Of course not! I try hard to follow Illich and his...Of course not! I try hard to follow Illich and his views on the medical institutions. Beside's I don't want to give the med any reason to put me down early because I have a good heart he'd like to dig out and use for the privately covered patient he has waiting.Leigh Blackallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17845313396595646728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-56320971516561395162009-11-22T17:04:52.008+11:002009-11-22T17:04:52.008+11:00I am wondering if we should be thinking more about...I am wondering if we should be thinking more about donating our body parts for live transplant...would you donate for transplant, Leigh?Sarah Stewarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00480597227427423793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-54010327159064054752009-11-22T16:33:51.758+11:002009-11-22T16:33:51.758+11:00hi
I think peoples ideas and beliefs about eternal...hi<br />I think peoples ideas and beliefs about eternal salvation probably influence their feelings on this. <br />What interested me was the lack of attention to the basic principles of of infection control 101 displayed by the students (it just looks wrong seeing long hair flapping and touching the exposed body - and gloved dirty hands - then scratching your face!). When the principles of clean and dirty are entrenched - you just don't ever do this - so that taught me something about med students and hygiene. <br /><br />Also wondering what the relevance of dissection is to OT students??<br /><br />Don't ever see this becoming part of midwifery education - as lets face it - its totally not relevant. <br /><br />I think if med students are going to cut people up - then the content on considering the whole person id crucial - to make it holistc and healthy - and not just nutty. <br /><br />I thought one of the tutors was a little too excited by the gratuity for my taste. <br /><br />It gave me a bit to think about - initially I wasn't going to bother watching - but I couldn't be bothered going to bed and my partner loves the idea of donating himself - so I lost the which channel debate. <br /><br />RaeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-3811737166451380922009-11-22T08:17:13.744+11:002009-11-22T08:17:13.744+11:00I'd say by then science will be using our bodi...I'd say by then science will be using our bodies for methane power generation hooked up to crematoriums.Leigh Blackallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17845313396595646728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-42713817265742144652009-11-22T07:43:50.189+11:002009-11-22T07:43:50.189+11:00I have never thought about the issue until I watch...I have never thought about the issue until I watched the documentary and then only in terms of whether I would donate my body or not. We have never used dissection in the midwifery courses I have been involved with so I have never felt the need to do any reading or evaluation on the topic.<br /><br />I wonder how much of the 'hands on' experience, including touch and smell, will be replicated one day using 3D etc.Sarah Stewarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00480597227427423793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-65424885086569204402009-11-21T10:00:42.012+11:002009-11-21T10:00:42.012+11:00Absolutely Claire. I think the disrespect issue is...Absolutely Claire. I think the disrespect issue is a distraction. It certainly isn't a reason for stopping. I just wonder if it really is a useful way of learning.Anne Marie Cunninghamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05289974924032448531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-90559539053740440522009-11-21T09:44:49.385+11:002009-11-21T09:44:49.385+11:00I would hope to donate my organs for transplant if...I would hope to donate my organs for transplant if possible, and then donate my body. I also come from the perspective that when you are gone, you are gone and I might as well be used for something constructive or buried for fertiliser! <br /><br />I studied using cadavers at university and felt it was a hugely useful experience. Fellow students did make jokes, but I felt this was definitely a response to their anxiety and discomfort. Anatomy for me, was much more clear in the DR than in textbooks or animation. I absolutely agree that as long as the bodies keep on being donated, students should continue to be offered this useful method of learning. To be honest I am surprised this is a debate at all! If students are found to be disrespectful they should be subject to normal procedures for dealing with inappropriate and unethical conduct in relation to professional codes of practice.enableothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12651855481354108707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-49318876430636533252009-11-21T09:31:12.212+11:002009-11-21T09:31:12.212+11:00The comments which have been made about dissection...The comments which have been made about dissection showing the range of 'normal' fit with those in the paper I linked to. The authors also say that learning about different textures is important.<br /><br />For the record I would like to state that I wouldn't have any concerns about giving my body over for dissection by students. My quandary is more over whether it is really is the most efficient way for students to learn. Research shows that different students have different experiences and spend more or less time in actual dissection as one might expect.<br /><br />I grew up in a place in rural Northern Ireland. It is traditional for the dead to be waked in their own homes so I have seen and touched many people who had died before I studied medicine. It is actually a less familiar experience for me now that I live somewhere this is much less common. <br /><br />Well, done on starting the conversation Sarah. There is actually a published paper from Dunedin about dissection quite recently. It documents the access of other professions to the process.<br /><br />Has anyone been able to access the paper I linked to?Anne Marie Cunninghamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05289974924032448531noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-43461722657911274942009-11-21T07:06:51.599+11:002009-11-21T07:06:51.599+11:00Starpath: do you think the jokes were disrespectfu...Starpath: do you think the jokes were disrespectful or a way of coping with the reality of the experience?Sarah Stewarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00480597227427423793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-67766704242296755222009-11-21T06:44:54.778+11:002009-11-21T06:44:54.778+11:00As a student of Physical Education (decades ago),...As a student of Physical Education (decades ago), we were fortunate to be admitted to the "bod room" for anatomy instruction and observation of the dissection. It was all very respectful. Of course there were jokes about "do you want a hand?". Otago Medical School memorial service for relatives and friends was a clever way to enable people to remember the contribution of those who donated their bodies...a very good idea.starpathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03198109284351436733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-76895352205222649012009-11-21T05:30:21.144+11:002009-11-21T05:30:21.144+11:00I think a key reason that my friend learned so muc...I think a key reason that my friend learned so much was her perceived need to learn more about tissue and nerve structure than previous anatomy classes provided and her instructor's role modeling of respect for human body.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00399644504598122193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-31838168305344064992009-11-21T05:26:44.641+11:002009-11-21T05:26:44.641+11:00I called friend who recently did class and this is...I called friend who recently did class and this is what my friend learned from cadaver anatomy class:<br /><br />.Things aren't necessarily where they are supposed to be<br />.Appreciation of tissue densities and structures<br />. Texture of tissues<br />. Investigating cause of death<br />. Bodies response to previous surgeriesAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00399644504598122193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-53500946334858247202009-11-20T19:07:51.426+11:002009-11-20T19:07:51.426+11:00Oooh, interesting debate is interesting. Just to ...Oooh, interesting debate is interesting. Just to throw in another thought, we seem to be looking at the place of dissection in education without looking at what else goes along with it - should we perhaps also consider context? What ethical training do they have, what psycho-social preparation? How is dissection couched, how are the students introduced into it and what happens post-dissection not only in terms of the 'nuts and bolts' of anatomy, but also the thoughts and feelings of the student as a member of society and a human being (and not just a proto-doc)?erikahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07516070137801014946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-65027035947545654532009-11-20T16:47:00.454+11:002009-11-20T16:47:00.454+11:00Lots to think about here. I have no experience wi...Lots to think about here. I have no experience with human dissection, but as a teacher of high school biology I have thought about virtual vs real dissection a fair bit. <br /><br />The benefits of virtual dissections are that they are cheaper, easier, less smelly, less confusing (as usually everyone is looking at the same animal so natural variation in internal structures doesn't complicate things), and avoids many of the ethical concerns associated with real dissections. <br /><br />However, I've rarely seen a student get excited about a virtual dissection. There is sometimes a 'gee whiz' response to the cool flash animations, but not to the actual dissection itself. How are you going to learn that not every heart or spleen or... looks exactly the same? How are you going to find out if you have steady enough hands to make the delicate incisions required to cut through different tissues? Or the fact that different tissues feel very different? And as I think someone in this thread mentioned, dissections would seem to benefit kinesthetic learners. <br /><br />Every year that I've done dissections and, particularly the fetal pig, I've allowed students to choose to do a virtual dissection if they are opposed to the real thing. Every year a small number of students make that choice. Every year a roughly equal number of students go into the dissection expecting to hate it and find out that they are fascinated by the process. The beauty of a tiny fetal pig heart, or the perfection of the tracheal cartilage is hard to replicate in a virtual setting. The students who choose the virtual route are still required to write the lab exam at the end of the dissection (using photo cards as the dissection animals are pretty ripe by then). Usually the students who have chosen the virtual path find the lab exam frustrating--they just don't know the parts as well as the students who did the real dissection. <br /><br />I wonder how much of our hang ups with dissections, human and otherwise, are a reflection on our increased isolation from the nitty gritty of life and death? Most of us in western society do not slaughter and butcher our own food. Most of our children have no experience handling animal carcasses. If we eat meat most of us obtain it in a very sanitized form. I have never seen a dead human body other than in photos or images on TV. <br /><br />Do all medical students need to learn anatomy by performing human dissections? I'm not sure. Perhaps for some it is the best way to learn, and for others it is not. As an educator I know that my students learn best when I can offer them multiple ways to access the information.Claire Thompsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07469996081279966976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-65860517049198362009-11-20T14:44:01.693+11:002009-11-20T14:44:01.693+11:00yeah, I'm arguing for the sake of it too..
Bu...yeah, I'm arguing for the sake of it too..<br /><br />But just to be clear, I didn't say videos, simulations, and models replace.. I proposed that live observation to the point of guided live doing might suffice. Cutting on an as needed basis, with strong networks of support.<br /><br />What about the military? Part of what they do is kill people. They need to know what does that effectivley. Should I donate my body so they can experiment with effective was to dismember it?<br /><br />What about car safety research. Should I donate my body so they can know what a real body goes through on impact?<br /><br />Why not clone semiconcious humans and practice on them live? They're nobody's child or parent, they have no conciousness.. lets do it! <br /><br />Our ethics are to protect us, not the other.Leigh Blackallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17845313396595646728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-11655896335143618852009-11-20T14:28:53.835+11:002009-11-20T14:28:53.835+11:00But I can tell you now...there are some things tha...But I can tell you now...there are some things that you just cannot learn by watching videos, practicing on models, or even watching others do it...you have to do it yourself. The feel of putting a needle through skin just cannot be replicated easily in other ways. <br /><br />I have to say I'm arguing with you, Leigh, for the sake of it...because you've turned into such an old grouch. I actually haven't looked into this issue of teaching/learning by dissection because I have never had to think about it. Heath professionals have to learn some way...what's the difference between 'practicing' on you when you're alive to learning when you're dead? <br /><br />I am interested to hear, Merrolee, that the OT students go to the dissection lab but nurses and midwives don't...what does that say about the way we educate nurses & midwives compared to OTs?Sarah Stewarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00480597227427423793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-40407735138602047402009-11-20T14:21:05.801+11:002009-11-20T14:21:05.801+11:00And animals? Should our undergrads and researchers...And animals? Should our undergrads and researchers continue their testing and foundational education on animals as much as they do? I heard in NZ that animal cutting is no longer the norm? what about gratuitous testing?Leigh Blackallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17845313396595646728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-72099682698621883192009-11-20T14:19:00.488+11:002009-11-20T14:19:00.488+11:00You tell me?
I expect that they will have seen de...You tell me?<br /><br />I expect that they will have seen demos before, quite a few, and they may even have someone with experience on hand. So yes, they could learn by doing.<br /><br />I'm not sure a dead person is good enough practice for all that would be involved anyway? But its not my area... I would trust someone with real experience (even if only observed) than rehersal on dead people..Leigh Blackallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17845313396595646728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-33555105497348604842009-11-20T14:10:45.873+11:002009-11-20T14:10:45.873+11:00OK...Leigh...this rich, middle class, drunk 'v...OK...Leigh...this rich, middle class, drunk 'video on YouTube' student has become a doctor..and is now an obstetrician looking after your darling wife and baby. Things don't go normally and she requires emergency treatment etc. How can you guarantee that doctor has the requisite knowledge to carry out a c/s or whatever...is it better for that doctor to practice on your 'live' wife rather than a 'dead' body?Sarah Stewarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00480597227427423793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-81127289290512972272009-11-20T13:59:19.331+11:002009-11-20T13:59:19.331+11:00I wonder, could this argument we're not going ...I wonder, could this argument we're not going to have extend to animals as well?Leigh Blackallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17845313396595646728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-652950132925204088.post-7163964622331150372009-11-20T10:23:50.072+11:002009-11-20T10:23:50.072+11:00This paper contains seven arguments for the retent...This paper contains seven arguments for the retention of dissection. doi:10.1016/j.aanat.2007.10.001 <br /><br />I don't doubt that students are respectful. I don't remember any dis-respect in my own year of dissection. I just look for objective evidence that it is the most effective and efficient way to teach anatomy.Anne Marie Cunninghamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05289974924032448531noreply@blogger.com